Grammaraticianing

[triadruid]

Based on a conversation the other day, humor me.

[Poll #1236826]

Comments

[rfunk.livejournal.com]

Why do I get the feeling this is a settle-an-argument sort of poll? :-)

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

Not really an argument, just a conversation at cross-purposes. We realized that we each heard something completely different (and to be honest, I don't remember which one is the original, now).

[liquidfun.livejournal.com]

To get the statements to make sense, I tried two substitutions.

X = "clean toilets"

X = "masturbate"

Not that those two things are related in my mind, I just wanted two rather different examples to consider.

And you know, there's always the titillation factor.

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

Very helpful, sir.

[lightonthesill.livejournal.com]

This was also what I had to do... I used "fart" in my mental example... in all cases... it meant that I couldn't fart. Or at least that I couldn't do it often.

[featherynscale.livejournal.com]

There's no 'get away with' in any of those constructions in my brain.

"I can often not-X" means that I can often do a thing with is the opposite of X.

[fionnabhar.livejournal.com]

Except in the first one, I think, which could, given the context. "Because my baby-sitter is my daughter, I can often not pay her." That means I can get away with not doing it, not that I often do pay her.

[featherynscale.livejournal.com]

Ok. For some reason I am not processing the 'get away with it' connotation of 'can'. Carry on.

[fionnabhar.livejournal.com]

It's not with the "can," though. The construct is that "not-pay" becomes the opposite of "pay." What can you do? You can not-pay.

[margaretq.livejournal.com]

I am stuck there too. I often cannot open this web site... I often can not get this stupid thing to work. I can not often deal with the dingbats that call my work (that is a BAD sentence). I cannot often make time to do X with my stupid schedule....
that's how I read this...

[fionnabhar.livejournal.com]

Or might the construct be "I can often (as) not X", with the "as" elided in speech? Huh.

[fionnabhar.livejournal.com]

Here's the deal. "Cannot" is actually one word, unless one takes the effective, but inelegant route of splitting the two words with a modifier. As one word, spelled correctly, the not always modifies the can. Once it's split, it's all bets off.

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

It was a spoken conversation, so I opted to break 'cannot' into two words for the purposes of symmetry in the examples.

[fionnabhar.livejournal.com]

Wasn't critiquing your spelling. :-) I could see why you did it, but just pointing out why it gets confusing open to interpretation when words come between the can and the not.

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm 90% sure that the first question was the original example, because the other two are unambiguous (to me, obviously).

[ruisseau.livejournal.com]

I read "some fifth thing" as "some filthy thing."

I suspect that I need a nap. ;)

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

Or at least some time in bed...

[ruisseau.livejournal.com]

Alas, I am alone and filling the hours with housework and other responsible things. :)

[greektoomey.livejournal.com]

"I often can not X" to me connotes, "When presented with the opportunity to X, much of the time I am unable, despite my best efforts."

[infintysquared.livejournal.com]

Exactly what I wanted to say below, in a much more elegant phrasing. Thanks.

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

Good alternate case.

[duriyah.livejournal.com]

Yes. I'm with you on this one.

[infintysquared.livejournal.com]

The first two, I treated the 'not' as a modifier to the word directly preceding it, and 'can or can not' as 'can or can not get away with.' That's how I was taught.

In the third, the 'can not' directly modifies the verb following it, and implies 'can not perform this action,' to my personal intuitive connotation.

[lexpendragon.livejournal.com]

"I often can not X"

"Most of the time, I X with impunity, but frequently I am not able to X."

[fionnabhar.livejournal.com]

It also occurs to me that unclear modals get Americans into trouble quite often. We use "can" when we mean "may," as in "to have permission" or "to be allowed." Hence, the "get away with."

Trouble there, though, is that we also use "may" when we mean "might."

Arse.

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I love to point out can/may/must/should when writing up official documents. Makes other people bonkers. :)

[saffronhare.livejournal.com]

We also move in circles where wording gets all wonky for fun. For example, I've heard you say, "Here I go, being not-helpful!" or other people saying, "Can I be not-helpful?"

There's inaccuracy, playing, and subculture vocab. They tend to work across each other's grains.

[druidevo.livejournal.com]

???

I do not see how those three statments are not all equivilent.

So says the Dyslexic.

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

That is a completely worthwhile data point, sir. :)

[kaymyth.livejournal.com]

Hm. Try having Erin read them out loud to you, emphasizing the modified phrases. Might make more sense than staring at the words. :)

[bondgirl51.livejournal.com]

To me they mean precisely what they say they mean.
The comment does not remotely infer as to whether or not the person's inability to do something has to do with that action not being allowed.

[kenllama.livejournal.com]

"when i use a word, it means exactly what i choose it to mean..."
--humpty dumpty, via lewis carroll

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

Well, "manage to X" might have been better, but by that time the poll had been filed... *shrug*

[liquidfun.livejournal.com]

X = "do-something" in what I've added. Note that NOT do-something should not (necessarily) be construed as gold-bricking, as in the example of X = "smoke cigarettes" where the NOT do-something is a worthy accomplishment.

The first reads to me as: Expressing a frequent ability to NOT do-something. This to me implies that "NOT do-something" is the speaker's preferred way of handling this situation and it is a positive type of statement.

The other two, to me, read similar to each other, but rather differently than the first. These two are negative-type statements, expressing either rare ability or frequent inability.

The second: Expressing an infrequent ability to do-something.

The third: Expressing a frequent inability to do-something.

[kenllama.livejournal.com]

My biggest point of deviation from the first two answers you offer is that "can" is about ability for me, not about "getting away with".

Here's how I'd read those sentences:

What does "I can often not X" mean to you?
--> I might try frequently, but it usually doesn't work.

What does "I can not often X" mean to you?
--> It is rare that I am able to... (as in, the opportunity is absent)

What does "I often can not X" mean to you?
--> Most of the time, I am not able to... (the ability is generally absent)

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

Sure, that makes sense. I'm disappointed that that part was unclear, since it was strictly orthogonal to the actual point of the poll...

[duriyah.livejournal.com]

I think that broke my brain. I don't talk that way, except for the last case, "I often cannot X", by which I would mean: "I try and try, but I often cannot get the lid of the damned jar!". Or some such.

For the other cases, I think I am much more likely to use words like "usually", or "rarely".

brain broken

[rfunk.livejournal.com]

Yeah. What she said.

concis

[greektoomey.livejournal.com]

Okay, here's my summary, in which I attempt to evaluate the three forms as succinctly as possible.

"I can not often X" indicates absence of opportunity.

"I often can not X" indicates absence of ability.

"I can often not X" is a non-traditional construction; it will generally only occur in spoken (i.e., non-formal) English, and in contrast to the other two constructions which indicate an absence, it indicates a positive ability to abstain from X.

Re: concis

[crookedface.livejournal.com]

That's how I read them, too.

[ambivalentboi.livejournal.com]

"I can often not X" suggests to me that I do not often have the opportunity or means to X.

"I can not often X" and "I often can not X" mean the same thing to me. Most of the time I cannot or am not able to X for some unspecified reason.