Hardly content-free at all

[triadruid]

I'm argumentative today. Okay, strike that; I'm more argumentative than usual today. I'm not sure if this bodes well or ill for my evening and Saturday. On the other hand, this post has been percolating since Tuesday, at least, I just haven't been around to make it...

A couple of things crossed my radar going in opposite directions this last week. The first was Rosie O'Donnell's idiotic comments about "Ching Chong Chinamen" (which I apparently missed back in December), and the video rebuttal from Beau Sia, an Chinese-American slam artist. I really enjoyed his take on the issue, which made my reaction to Exhibit B all the more surprising.

George Takei took issue with retired sports figure Tim Hardaway's homophobic remarks last week, and recorded a "mock PSA" in which he began in an informative and neutral style, then camped it up by commenting on how much he "really liked" Hardaway, running his fingers up the leg of Hardaway's image behind him and making various not-so-thinly-veiled innuendos. See the video clip for yourself. Somehow, this rubbed me the wrong way from the get-go; I don't think it's kosher to "taunt" someone who is uncomfortable with homosexuality any more than it's okay to taunt a gay man by throwing them amidst a pack of horny females, for example. The final line "And one day, when you least expect it, I WILL have sex with you!" was just the capstone of that problem for me - it feeds right into the prejudices that already exist, and doesn't do a damn thing to create a dialogue, as far as I can tell. It's reverse bigotry in my world, but several people I know liked the skit, so maybe I'm out of the 'norm' here. But on the other hand, I'm not sure I agree with the NBA's decision to ban him Hardaway from all future All-Star events.

Comments

[featherynscale.livejournal.com]

Who is the "him" in your last sentence, Takei or Hardaway?

(I can't respond yet to the main thrust of your post, since I haven't seen the video, and I'm unlikely to pop it up here at the office. I have some opinions about the general subject on an abstract level, but they may not be relevant. What I have seen is Sia's talk to O'Donnell, and I thought he was fantastic.)

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

Hardaway; I should have been more clear there.

I loved Sia's talk. I think it's the difference between wit and mockery, which is admittedly thin sometimes.

[greektoomey.livejournal.com]

First, let me just say that I didn't find Takei's skit to be amusing or offensive. Second, I agree that banning Hardaway from all future All-Star events for essentially exercising his first-amendment right to speak hatefully is misguided.

However, I do recognize that Hardaway's comments were hateful, and I don't believe that such attitudes should be catered to or accommodated to any degree.

I think it IS okay to taunt hatemongers. In fact, I would go so far as to say that mockery is probably the BEST possible response to those who loudly and proudly proclaim hatred.

There's a clear difference in my mind between "someone who is uncomfortable with homosexuality" and a public figure and role model (like an All-Star athlete, for example) explicitly, publicly, and unrepentantly endorsing hatred.

Also, I believe your analogy is faulty. Throwing a gay man amidst a pack of horny (presumably heterosexual) women is not the equivalent of a taunt. If Takei was compelling Hardaway to spend time in a crowded gay bar involuntarily, then your analogy would be apt.

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

The analogy was strained, perhaps, but I don't think faulty. I've heard/seen of situations where a gay man is "threatened" with imminent female attention if they don't knock it off, which seems analogous to forcing Hardaway to watch his crotch be stroked by a gay man on national television.

[greektoomey.livejournal.com]

Umm... are you saying that sexually assaulting someone's IMAGE is analogous to sexually assaulting someone's PERSON?

Is burning someone in effigy then analogous to burning him for real?

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

Is it analogous? Yes, to a degree, especially when you do it on national television. If you're asking if it's equivalent, then no, of course not.

and another thing

[greektoomey.livejournal.com]

forcing Hardaway to watch his crotch be stroked by a gay man on national television.

Who forced Hardaway to watch anything? I see this as more an issue of Takei's right to self-expression. Unless I'm missing something, Hardaway was under no more pressure to watch Takei's PSA than Christian Fundamentalists are under pressure to watch racy television.

Certainly, it's his (and your) right to object, but it sounds to me like you're asserting that Hardaway's sensibilities deserve more protection than Takei's speech.

Re: and another thing

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

So sexual harassment is okay as long as it's proving a point?

Re: and another thing

[greektoomey.livejournal.com]

"Sexual harassment" refers primarily to unwanted sexual advances in an unbalanced-power situation, where the person making the advances has the ability to enact negative repercussions should the advances be rebuffed. Usually this involves an employment or educational setting.

Takei's skit was not sexual harassment. I think you'd be stretching to interpret it as a sexual advance, but even if you did somehow manage to interpret it that way, you still must acknowledge that Takei has no power over Hardaway, and Hardaway is free to ignore Takei's remarks if he finds them distasteful.

~~~

I would like to read your response to crookedface's comment, because I think he made my point about mockery and shaming much better than me.

Re: and another thing

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

I'm not familiar with limiting sexual harassment to workplace situations; what would you call it when someone is being badgered/harassed sexually in a social setting?

However, that being said, Hardaway had some definite limits to the amount of "ignoring" he could do to Takei's bit, since it was broadcast far and wide. If someone's naked pictures were broadcast without their permission during the Super Bowl halftime show with commentary, would that qualify as an "unwelcome sexual advance" in your book? Does the victim have a power to retract the act done? I'm trying to envision what would happen if a gay man/woman was the object of the sexual innuendo, mocking their gayness, and I can't believe that the blasé reaction would be the same (in our circle of friends).

Re: and another thing

[greektoomey.livejournal.com]

Look it up in a dictionary.

When one becomes a public figure, one invites public commentary. And, yes, this includes publication of revealing photographs. Or do you think that national and international tabloids obtain the permission of their subjects before they run revealing photographs and blatantly false articles?

You keep returning to the notion of turning the tables and subjecting a gay man to the same treatment, but for the situation to be similar, the gay man who is being "victimized" would have to be an avowed misogynist, wouldn't he?

"I hate women. Let it be known, I don't like women. I'm a misogynist."

And, yes, I believe that outright misogyny warrants exactly the same degree of public mockery and embarrassment as Hardaway's unapologetic homophobia.

Sure, there are gay men out there who are misogynist, but they are a rare bird, just like the "man-hating lesbian."

Re: and another thing

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I don't believe that one ill deed deserves another, so we'll probably have to agree to disagree here.

Re: and another thing

[greektoomey.livejournal.com]

Fair enough.

[kellan-m-solan.livejournal.com]

I do my best to stay under my rock when it comes to celebrities, so this is all news to me. In light of that, I should probably keep my mouth shut, but then that has never been a strong suit of mine. For those who are truly passionate about these things, please don't take this personally...consider it more a commentary on the state of the culture and judge the source kindly if in doubt:

O'Donnel's gag was banal and certainly ill advised. Sia's response was, thematically, right on target. But the shaky camera, the shots in profile...there's an awful lot of unnecessary attitude in there. I guess that's his line of work. But one could hope that he would take his message seriously enough to stop taking himself so seriously while delivering it. I'm just saying, for a guy I doubt has ever felt the business end of a bat, and certainly hasn't been down any coal shafts lately he's sure hamming up the righteous part of his righteous indignation.

I don't know what Hardaway did, but I agree Takei isn't helping the cause. But these are all small things. When comments like these are made by public figures, it might be a good chance for some education but can we please can the bullshit outrage? O'Donnel isn't beating any Chinese with a stick or even her meaty fists. She isn't even refusing to hire them on her staff. She wasn't polite to them...oh Gods save us! Now I agree it would be awfully nice if we could live in a world where everyone was polite. It's a fine thing to strive for. It would also be nice if we could cure the common cold. But no one is dieing from a cold, and that's why we spend our money and time researching cancer. Just maybe we should save some of our outrage for any of the great many more pressing issues than the tactile quality of our interracial kid gloves. Cause really, where does it end? I had family in the internment camps in California. Does that mean I have special protection from any mean comments you might make about my round face or small stature for the rest of my life, three generations later? Bullshit, I don't want you to be nice to me cause you owe my grandfather....judge me. But that isn't even the point. Should we talk for awhile about the Newsweek staffers I've seen beaten by the Chinese authorities because they dared to think that “free foreign press” actually meant free? We're all wrong, we all owe somebodies grandfather something. It is just as stupid for Chinese-Americans to want special treatment as it is for me to. Forty-years ago when you WERE getting hit with a bat, you had a case...now you're just whining.

Seriously, can't we move on to bigger things?

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

I think this is probably the most intelligent response I've gotten on this. "Can't we all just get along" sometimes makes me want to choke a kitten, but you're right, we're talking about celebrities yammering back and forth at each other, when there are real race riots, hate crimes, and other Stoopid Shit going on all around us.

[fionnabhar.livejournal.com]

*shrug* I saw the George Takei bit, and I laughed my ass off. More because it was so random and unlikely than anything. I try not to dictate to people how they should react or answer people who affront them, even when I think I'm pretty sure what would or would not be a good way to do that. Sort of like white people saying black people should go the nonviolent route or the Black Power route. Not my call, either way.

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

Maybe, that was partly why I posted it, because I wanted a wider opinion. I know my own thoughts on the matter, and was surprised by their vehemence...

[crookedface.livejournal.com]

I fail to find anything racist in Rosie's comments. The charge of ignorance can be upheld, certainly, as her fake Chinese didn't sound like any spoken language of which I'm aware. A poor imitation of a not-known language is not an indicator of racism in any reality to which I'm privy, however; methinks some folks are taking offense just to take offense. If she had botched French as horribly, would there have been cries of racism? I think not, and that's a good indicator as to whether her words were racist or not.

As for Hardaway being mocked, I think that's a good thing. At some point, bigotry has to quit being taken seriously and become reason for open mockery and shaming; to respond to it seriously every time it rears its ugly little head is to invite everybody to lend it some credence. Only when it no longer has any credence and results in being ignored, shunned, and mocked _as a matter of regular course_ will we have a chance of moving past it on a large scale.

[greektoomey.livejournal.com]

At some point, bigotry has to quit being taken seriously and become reason for open mockery and shaming

+++

That's what I was trying to say, only more concisely than I was able.

[kellan-m-solan.livejournal.com]

I'm on board with that.

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

Interesting point of view. I think that "Ching Chong" has a similar level of ugly backstory as "Nigger" and "Spic", so maybe the comparison would be if she'd been talking about "Frogs" or "Frenchies". And yes, I'd hope for a public outcry there too, if perhaps not so vehement.

As for Hardaway, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree (see my responses to greektoomey). I don't find it any more acceptable to do this to the "straights" than it is when it was done to GLBT folks, AND there's the weight of hundreds of years of public opinion that I don't believe will be changed constructively by engaging in the exact behaviors the other side accuses you of. But that's just me, and I could very well be wrong in the minority.

[biscuitgod.livejournal.com]

I'm curious...what should have been a gay person's response? How do you cure someone of homophobia? Is Homophobia really a fear or is that sly advertising. Are they really fearful of homo's and have panic attacks or whatever or is it a comfortable euphemism for hatered?

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, did I say it was fear? I don't think I meant to; I just meant that it probably fed into Hardaway's prejudices/hatred and did nothing to move things forward. Now, maybe nothing could have improved Hardaway's opinion of gay people (public backlash and banning from NBA events probably hurt him financially and caused him to issue his retraction, but that's not the same thing), but I would rather see people try. Beau Sia's "rant" educated while it hit, and maybe that's my failing to see that as more productive.

What "should" a gay person's response have been? I suppose if I were Takei I'd have talked about the fact that Hardaway assuredly did have gay teammates while he was a player, and none of them ever made a move on him, harassed him in the locker room, Etc. "We look just like everybody else, and we don't hate you." might have been better received. But then, I think Gay Pride parades are usually counterproductive too, as they take the most flamboyant segment of the culture and wave it in people's faces as somehow a reason to take gay people seriously.

[greektoomey.livejournal.com]

I think Gay Pride parades are usually counterproductive too, as they take the most flamboyant segment of the culture and wave it in people's faces as somehow a reason to take gay people seriously.

Speaking as a straight man with a gay pride tattoo, I feel I can say with some confidence that if you believe the purpose of pride parades is to be taken seriously, then you are Missing The Point.

re: Missing The Point

[triadruid.livejournal.com]

Great, explain it to me then (please). Because in all seriousness, I've *always* had it explained to me as a "we're not going to be afraid to be who we are", which doesn't jibe really well with some of the more outlandish pride parades out there, or the we-want-the-same-things-you-want motif which is also out there in a (different?) segment of the gay population.

Re: Missing The Point

[greektoomey.livejournal.com]

"We're not going to be afraid to be out. We're PROUD to be out."

Out of the closet, outside, outlandish, outrageous, whatever.

We're going to get together as a visible community and have a wild party. We're going to let our hair down (or spike it up) and get as crazy as we want to, because for most of history we've had to hide our sexuality and assemble secretly in private, and now that we don't have to conceal our identities in public, we're going to celebrate!

Content Indeed!

[kellan-m-solan.livejournal.com]

I've got to admit, at the end off all this I'm less certain than I might like. Not about the banality of getting worked up regarding how pc public figures choose to be or not to be. But say you're dealing with someone on a personal level, you care about what this person thinks for whatever reason. What is the best response. My gut wants to fly with serious message, straight face. I agree with triadruid that "We look just like everybody else, and we don't hate you." would have been better received....by me. Solemn sincerity carries, that's what works with me. But I'm certainly not the only standard, hell it's rare my preferences are representative of the majority. crookedface's comments make some sense to me. Do we accomplish more by letting small things BE small things? even if they are large on a personal level?

I suppose it depends heavily on the individuals involved, but I'm not sure where I stand on this one.